magneticvalerion asked: Injuries. Minor and transient symptoms easily treated, versus the painful, often scarring, results of a preventable disease which a child is hundreds of times more likely to contract than suffer from side-effects.
Please refresh your mind on vaccine injuries and their prevalence. Many vaccine injuries are life long and untreatable. My daughter will have to suffer with her vaccine injuries for the rest of her life.
To put it into perspective for you, in 2011 there were 222 confirmed cases of measles in the US. “Among them, 70 measles patients were hospitalized, 17 had diarrhea, 15 were dehydrated, and 12 had pneumonia. No cases of encephalitis and no deaths were reported.”http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6115a1.htm…
In 2011 there were 2,730 adverse reactions posted to VAERS for JUST MMR & MMRV vaccines. Of those, there were 8 deaths reports from the MMR &/or MMRV vaccine: VAERS ID #’s for deaths from MMR & MMRV:
Please keep in mind that only ~1% of adverse reactions are reported.
Yeah, because if your daughter suffered from vaccines (unsubstantiated, anecdotal and subject to your own bias) then all vaccines must be bad, right? This seems to be a common theme amongst the antivax community — “my (X) had a vaccine and now they’re [insert colourful medical-related adjective]!” This does not constitute a reliable argument, at all. Reliable arguments are made by distancing yourself from any emotional attachments, declaring any and all biases (this is done in scientific papers) and looking at the data with your most impassive, analytical eye. Also, knowing the definition of “correlation does not imply causation” is generally essential.
I had a look at your link, and I absolutely love how you skipped out entire sentences that defame your cause. The fundamental difference between the pro-vax and the antivax crowd is that a pro-vaxxer will always look for validated data that shows evidence of both vaccine benefit and vaccine harm. We don’t want kids, adults, anybody, to have reactions to the vaccines, but in that vein we acknowledge vaccines do, very very rarely, cause (transient) harm - this isn’t the same as saying that all vaccines are safe, and quite the contrary we want all vaccines to be continuously, rigorously screened. Every antivax argument I’ve encountered has sought to stir up unsubstantiated, biased mistrust toward the industry by employing misrepresentation, distortion, straw man arguments and a buttload of other logical fallacies I’m not versed enough to appreciate. And you know, you’re entitled to your opinion of course, except that it’s doing major harm to children and adults. The reason people aren’t dying from vaccinated illnesses as much nowadays is because our medicine and understanding of disease is greater. It doesn’t mean the afflicted person is spared from horribly painful, often scarring illness.
But, resuming to that previous link, let’s look at it again: “Most patients (86%) were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. The increased numbers of outbreaks and measles importations into the United States underscore the ongoing risk for measles among unvaccinated persons and the importance of vaccination against measles.” It does later go on to say that, confirmed by history, 65% had no vaccination. The report also goes on to state, “The increase in measles importations and outbreaks during 2011 serves as a reminder that measles remains endemic in many parts of the world and unvaccinated U.S. residents continue to place themselves and others in their communities at risk for measles and its complications.” Seriously, read the whole article before you decide to cite from it, it postulates why there’s an increase in such illnesses, the age groups affected and so on.
I love how antivaxers through VAERS reports around without understanding the limitations based upon them, at all. Firstly, before I even look up those numbers, I (UK-based, honours degree in laboratory science) understand it’s a passive system where anybody can report (i.e. it isn’t sourced entirely by reliable people - e.g. physicians. The majority of reports are from physicians and such I believe, but this doesn’t go anywhere near making it citable in an argument) and as such it is subject heavily to personal bias (some symptoms are overreported, some symptoms are missed, etc.) with further reduces its reliability. M.D. James Laidler writes: “Because the reported adverse event was so… unusual, a representative of VAERS contacted me. After a discussion of the VAERS database and its limitations, they asked for my permission to delete the record, which I granted. If I had not agreed, the record would be there still, showing that any claim can become part of the database, no matter how outrageous or improbable.” He goes on to write, “Since at least 1998 (and possibly earlier), a number of autism advocacy groups have, with all the best intentions, encouraged people to report their autistic children—or autistic children of relatives and friends—to VAERS as injuries from thimerosal-containing vaccines. This has irrevocably tainted the VAERS database with duplicate and spurious reports.” But I acknowledge this second quotation from him as unsubstantiated, since he has no linked evidence showing such groups advocating such things. Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130419004549/http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/chelation-autism
Secondly, I know that, as someone who has actually read the VAERS limitations: “A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.” Source: http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index
The system then becomes just a collection of anecdotes, because it encourages any harm post vaccination. An adverse event is any harmful event which follows a vaccine, not a reaction to the vaccine itself. That would be an adverse reaction. I did a quick Google for VAERS cases and I also found, included, a case of a patient who was reported as having intussupection (a GI disorder) because they had the RotaShield vaccine a few days before (265605), and a patient who died from blunt head trauma in a vehicle accident (209245) who had her DTaP vaccines around the same period. Seriously, VAERS is not reliable in an argument. Correlation and causation are not linked.
Let’s look at those links:
416893: No evidence. Found dead. Correlation and causation.
428370: Developed a tonne of symptoms never, to my knowledge, commonly reported to vaccines. Developed DM/GBS/noninfectious meningitis. After having a Hepatitis A and MMR vaccine. Now, as a pro-vaxxer, I’d say initially this evidence does look like some autoimmune disorder which possibly could have been triggered by vaccination. Now, as a real scientist, I’d look at it and say what’s the epidemiology, how often are these vaccines used, are other symptoms reported and so on. Until I could establish a link, there is no evidence to suggest it is iatrogenic, or that removing it will benefit people in any way.
429528: Preterm baby who previously had RSV. Again, correlation-causation. Data states autopsy inconclusive. Again, the data here could indicate a potential link, if it were in any way reliable or reproducible.
432209: We don’t even have conclusive proof of death here! “Pt. wife reports pt. died.” Seriously!? What did he die of? Did he have terminal cancer, liver failure, kidney failure, was he involved in some kind of accident? This is exactly the kind of argument I’ve come to exepct of the antivax people; they think throwing a bunch of case studies they’ve barely looked at constitutes evidence.
436253: “No obvious reaction.” Unsuited for evidence; could be anything, there’s no evidence to suggest either way.
436743: Patient also had underlying infections. No cause of death listed. Inadmissible.
440919: “Patient with likely osteodysplastic primary dwarfism began to have vomiting, diarrhea, rash, fever on 10/20, became progressively weaker. Seen in urgent care clinic 10/23, became very weak after home on BENADRYL, came to ER. Found to have hydrocephalus (more than previous MRI), decorticate posturing, intubated, ventriculostomy perform, no longer responsive, cerebral edema and herniation.” OPD is listed as, likely, a genetic illness. By the logic of “her vaccines caused her death”, we could also attribute the benadryl she was put on as a causative factor. Underyling factors: inadmissible.
445693: “Patient travelled to another country on 12/1/11. Following day, began bleeding from his nose and coughing up blood. Found to have low platelets and profound coagulopathy. Subsequently has developed respiratory failure and acute renal failure requiring peritoneal dialysis. No infectious or other etiology identified to date.” Do vaccines cause such symptoms? His symptom history looks to be an autoimmune thing, does this take 4 days to appear? I am not an MD, so I have to defer to somebody’s better knowledge on this aspect, but I’d question that. Again, correlation, though. Possibility of a link, nothing more.
So, there. I’ve admitted that in a few cases there seems to be, from a (certainly fallible) trained scientist’s cursory glance, a few incidences where the vaccine might have been an involved factor. Your claim of “deaths from MMR & MMRV” is a complete and utter lie, supported by misrepresentation, logical fallacies and a failure in analysis. This doesn’t even begin to question the validity of using such an unreliable source as evidence.
Where did you get this 1% statistic? The VAERS disclaimer, which I’d be surprised if you’d read, does say that underreporting can be an issue as some people dismiss certain symptoms and such. But even assuming that incidents are massively underreported, from the above data there’s no evidence to suggest vaccines cause harm.
I’m going to break this down.
"Yeah, because if your daughter suffered from vaccines (unsubstantiated, anecdotal and subject to your own bias) then all vaccines must be bad, right?”
I have never said all vaccines are bad. Vaccination is a personal decision. The current “one size fits all” approach is failing our children. I advocate for informed consent. I advocate for parents, taking the health of their children into their hands and doing their own research and making a personal decision, whether that be fully vaccinating, no vaccinations, or somewhere in between.
“And you know, you’re entitled to your opinion of course, except that it’s doing major harm to children and adults. The reason people aren’t dying from vaccinated illnesses as much nowadays is because our medicine and understanding of disease is greater. It doesn’t mean the afflicted person is spared from horribly painful, often scarring illness.”
In the original description of herd immunity, the protection to the population at large occurred only if people contracted the infections naturally. The reason for this is that naturally-acquired immunity lasts for a lifetime. However, vaccine-induced immunity lasts for only a relatively short period, from 2 to 10 years at most, and then this applies only to humoral immunity. Then boosters were suggested for most vaccines, even the common childhood infections such as chickenpox, measles, mumps, and rubella. However, the boosters only last for 2 years or less. This means that at least half the population, that is the baby boomers, have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of these diseases for which they had been vaccinated very early in life. In essence, at least 50% or more of the population has been unprotected for decades. If we listen to present-day wisdom, we are all at risk of resurgent massive epidemics should the vaccination rate fall below 95%. Yet, we have all lived for at least 30 to 40 years with 50% or less of the population having vaccine protection. That is, herd immunity has not existed in this country for many decades and no resurgent epidemics have occurred. You also fail to mention that one can never become immune to bacteria, making herd immunity for bacterial illnesses null and void.
Now, horribly painful, often scarring? Are you joking me? Measles in nothing more than a cold in a healthy child. 95% of polio cases are completely asymptomatic and go away on their own. I could go on and on.
“But, resuming to that previous link, let’s look at it again: “Most patients (86%) were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. “
Yay! Natural immunity! If a child is intentionally unvaccinated, odds are the parents are well aware of the chance of catching a disease and are going to be celebrating the natural immunity.
But, just for giggles, here is some “outbreaks” in vaccinated populations.
As for VAERS, I understand 100% what you are saying. It isnt a perfect system and we know that. They admit that on their site. However to chalk every incident up to coincidence is unscientific and honestly, disgusting. Do you really suppose that pediatricians and parents are just sitting around dreaming up false reports? That they would go through all that time and effort to report something that never happened. Its not perfect, but it is the ONLY adverse event reporting system we have. Do you think you know more than the parents who stand as witnesses to the crippling effects of vaccination in their children?
First lets talk about the man with intussusception. Intussusception is included as a potential adverse reaction on the package insert and is even one of the most common reactions reported to VAERS… So I’m not really sure what your point is.
Now for the three month old who was involved with a car wreck, she was enrolled in a post marketing safety study of Daptacel. If you know anything about medical safety studies, any and all deaths must be reported, even if they have absolutely nothing to do with what is being tested. That’s just protocol for any drug testing.
"416893: No evidence. Found dead. Correlation and causation. "
Correlation may not equal causation but it certainly implies, or suggests, causation. It’s exactly the same as the correlation of smoking to lung cancer; not everyone who gets lung cancer smokes, and not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer, but yes, smoking causes lung cancer. A strong enough correlation is suggestive of causation. A correlation that results in a relative risk of 2.0 or higher is considered evidence of causation in a court of law. They determined that cigarette smoking caused lung cancer by studying the CORRELATION.
We will never find causation so long as the vaccine manufacturers are allowed to test their own products and continue to fund “third-party” testing. Correlation is not causation only when it fits their agenda. Apparently we can’t use that as an argument when we question vax injuries. But as soon as they start talking about vaccines saving million of lives…..
Also, if correlation doesn’t equal causation then you should probably stop correlating vaccines to disease decrease because doing so ignores all other co-factors
I will get off my tangent and leave you with the eloquent words of Shawn Siegel. http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2013/10/19/revelations-by-shawn-siegel/
“428370: Developed a tonne of symptoms never, to my knowledge, commonly reported to vaccines”
Your knowledge is wrong. All are listed as reactions to vaccines in the vaccine insert.
"Where did you get this 1% statistic?"
Again, correlation implies causation.
“432209: Did he have terminal cancer, liver failure, kidney failure”
It says no pre existing conditions. So you literally believe that people sit around and make up dead people to report to VAERS? Or that its a common problem?
436253: A five year old with no preexisting conditions dies hours after vaccination…. couldn’t of been the vaccine. (sarcasm)
436743: A Cold/URI/ear infection. That was his preexisting condition. It specifically details the reactions he had “SMQs:, Anaphylactic reaction (broad), Acute central respiratory depression (narrow), Guillain-Barre syndrome (broad), Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode (broad), Hypersensitivity (broad)” Those are vaccine reactions, not symptoms of his illnesses. Secondly, Why was he vaccinated while sick?? All vaccine inserts say no individual should ever be vaccinated while sick. This man consequently lost his life while the doctor gets off scot free.
440919: Again, the things this poor baby suffered from are listed as vaccine reactions and AGAIN, this poor baby had contraindictions to vaccines and received them anyways, probably because of an ill informed doctor who will never be held responsible.
445693: Again, listed as vaccine reactions.